It seems rare now for a journalist to press a Democratic Administration’s spokesperson, particularly on an issue around which the regime is as united as the Russo-Ukrainian War and its causes. But, such is what happened when Associated Press journalist Matt Lee questioned John Kirby on the causes of the war and whether NATO expansion was at least partly to blame.
Beginning, Matt Lee pressed Kirby on whether the reason NATO claims to feel so threatened by its border with Russia is if it just expanded to Russia’s border, noting that it is the US and its European satrapies that have expanded to the East rather than the Russians to the West, putting us on their door rather than them on ours.
Asking about that, he said, “Well, to look at this and say the reason that the Russian army is on NATO, the Russian army is at NATO’s doorstep is because NATO has expanded rather than the Russians expanding that, in other words, NATO has moved closer to Russia rather than Russia moving closer to NATO, is that not an accurate way to look at this?”
Rather than give an actual answer that defended NATO expansion or discredited Lee’s history of the situation in Europe, namely post-Cold War NATO expansion into former Warsaw Pact states bordering the Russian Federation, Kirby smeared him as echoing President Putin’s talking points. He said: “That’s the way President Putin probably looks at it. It’s certainly not the way that we look at it.”
Lee wasn’t flustered by Kirby’s insinuations. Instead, he pressed Kirby on the history of the matter, asking, “You don’t, you don’t think that NATO has expanded eastward toward Russia?” Kirby cut him off, admitting that “NATO has expanded” but then saying that such expansion is a “really good thing for the-.”
At that point, Lee cut Kirby off to get to his point, saying, “So the reason that the Russian army is at NATO’s doorstep is not the fault of the Russian, are not the it’s not the Russian army that’s done, its NATO has moved closer to move East.“
Kirby, frustrated, snapped back, “it wasn’t NATO who was ordering, you know, upwards of 15 battalion tactical groups to within 10 kilometers of the border with Ukraine, and I’m pretty sure it wasn’t NATO, who put little green men inside Ukraine to destabilize eastern states.”
Lee wasn’t having it. He fired back with, “I’m pretty sure Ukraine is not a member of NATO. So unless that’s changed…” Kirby interjected, angrily admitting that Ukraine was not a member of NATO. Lee then pointed out why that matters and what the real situation is, saying, “if NATO has moved east, the reason that the Russian army is closer or on NATO’s doorstep, is because NATO” moved East.
Kirby, obviously frustrated, asserted that “NATO is not an anti Russia Alliance. NATO is a security alliance.” Lee responded by saying, “Unfortunately, for 50 years, it was an anti Soviet Alliance. So do you not understand it? Do you not understand how can you not even see the Russians or perceive it as a as a threat and the fact that it keeps getting closer to their border, while their troops? I mean, the places where their troops are you say their troops are and they may have been in Ukraine and Georgia are not made up?”
In other words: the Russians can see that NATO has expanded to its doorstep and has reason to be afraid, which is something the US foreign policy elites refuse to acknowledge.
Kirby then proved Lee right by refusing to acknowledge the valid concerns of the Russians or even the history of NATO expansion, saying, “I don’t have I’m not going to pretend to know what goes in President Putin’s mind or Russian military commanders. I mean, I barely got a history degree at the University of South Florida. What I can tell you, what I can tell you is that is that NATO is a defensive alliance, it remains a defensive…”
Lee stuck to his guns, saying, “but it has moved east, correct? I mean, that’s just expanded.” Kirby, getting more frustrated by the minute, snapped, “there’s no reason for anybody to think the expansion is a hostile or threatening move. And we’ve been saying that throughout the last 15 years.”
Lee then pointed out how absurd that comment was, asking, “you’re moving, you’re moving closer to Russia, you’re blaming the Russians for being close to NATO?” Kirby snapped, “That’s exactly what we’re blaming
the Russians for violating the territorial integrity of Ukraine.”
Watch the back and forth exchange here:
Pentagon bullshitter, John Kirby, confronted with persistent journalist Matt Lee…..
💪💪💪 pic.twitter.com/8uTRfAEe74— Richard (@ricwe123) July 4, 2023
Featured image credit: screengrab from the embedded video
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